Atheist group seeks to ban “religious preference” from military documentation

As with most things MAAF does (Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers) this seems to be solution in search of a problem.
Last we heard from MAAF was when they were going after a cross at Camp Pendleton that Marines had put up to honor their fallen brothers. That effort angered even their fellow atheists:
I am a fellow atheist and have been for over ten years. I joined the Marine Corps in 2002 and continue to serve today. Never in that time have I been asked to change my beliefs or encouraged to be silent about my religious opinions… I will say that the opposition to that monument by this organization disgusts me and takes away from our brotherhood and all that we stand for.
More than once I’ve wondered if they weren’t secretly a religious group trying to discredit Atheism because the battles they pick to fight seem so utterly ridiculous.
A support group for atheist servicemembers has launched a petition drive to have President Obama end the requirement that the services solicit the religious affiliation of personnel, including recruits.
But a week after the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers submitted the petition on WhiteHouse.gov the effort has garnered just 25 of the 25,000 signatures it needs by Feb. 5 to get any kind of response from the White House.
MAAF President Jason Torpy, a West Point graduate and former Army officer, acknowledges there is a long way to go but says he remains “optimistic that we’ll get the signatures once some other groups pick this up.”
As of last time I checked, a few minutes ago, it was all the way up to 30 signatures. I’m fairly confident I could put up a petition calling on the federal government to indict Spongebob Squarepants for crimes against Starfish and have 50 people sign it by lunch just by putting it on my Facebook page.
Nonetheless, they do have what I consider a legit concern on one thing:
“What MRFF [MAAF allies Military Religious Freedom Foundation] has received complaints about is the fact that a service member's religion is listed on forms where there is no legitimate reason for it to be listed, such as the Army's ORB (Officer Record Brief) … forms whose purpose is to provide a summary of a service member's education, special skills, and service record,” said Chris Rodda, a writer and a researcher for MRFF.
“There is no reason that religion should be a factor in any career or assignment decisions that the information on these forms is used for,” she said.
I honestly didn’t know it was on any of those forms, and I am at a loss to explain why it should be, so I definitely can see their point there. And if that is what this petition said, I would have pushed it through a few different mediums. As far as I can tell there is no reason anyone on a promotion board or similar group should know what God or Deity one ascribes to, or chooses to disbelieve. I just don’t see how it is germane.
But alas, that isn’t what their petition says:
Every new military recruit is asked the question, "What is your religion?" This causes undue stress and pressure to conform as the recruit considers the predominant Christian culture of the military and the US. Having the "right" answer on ID tags and official records might make the difference in peer treatment and in equal opportunity in military assignments and promotions.
That first part seems absurd and insulting. You mean that our brave men and women signing up today are so susceptible to peer pressure that they would conform to something contrary to their moral underpinning? Maybe I just served in the most enlightened units of all time, but I never saw even a hint of this. The guys I served with had WIDELY divergent religious views, and no one had a problem with it, except the one dude who found out that he only had to work certain hours during Ramadan and promptly became a Muslim. And the only ones truly hostile about that were the other Muslims in my unit who knew the guy was using it as a scam.
In my Infantry Platoon alone we had a Muslim, a Mormon, several Catholics, a ton of Baptists, a Universalist Unitarian, two Buddhists, and atleast one Wiccan. (I’ve also served with Jewish guys and people who worshipped Odin.) Most the rest I didn’t know or had no religious affiliation. None of it mattered, no one cared. The only time it ever came up was if we were discussing something theological, and that was just for debates. (We would sometimes put the Muslim, Mormon and Catholic in the same Guard Tower so they could fight it out rhetorically.) If someone’s religious views are so milquetoast that they would change them because of peer pressure, then they probably weren’t all that devoted to their religion in the first place.
What the article neglects to mention at all is the actual reason for having a religious preference on military forms. That was brought home to me last night in a sad story that my friend Amy told me about. Her son is at Navy Basic Training, and his unit lost a man yesterday:
A recruit at Naval Station Great Lakes died Wednesday morning during a physical training exercise, according to the Lake County coroner.
Christopher Walker, who turned 19 in December, suddenly collapsed on the base near North Chicago, said Lake County coroner Artis Yancey.
He was rushed to James Lovell Federal Health Care Center but was pronounced shortly after at 9:57 a.m., according to Yancey.
Authorities said Walker was a Pennsylvania native.
It seems to me that Mr. Walker’s grieving parents would appreciate that the chaplain that came to the door to pass on this horrific and tragic news would be of the same religious persuasion as Christopher himself. Sending a Sikh chaplain to inform the parents of a deceased Catholic soldier wouldn’t seem to make much sense would it?
Lastly, the whole doing away with “No Religious Preference” thing seems just politically correct to me. How does a blank space convey something different than that phrase? Add “Humanist”, add "Spiritual But Not Religious”, add “First Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster”; it won’t make any difference to me. When I joined the army I became green. We may self-identify as white, or Christian, American-Indian or Buddhist, but we identify those around us more easily: because they are all our brothers and sisters, regardless of any other affiliation.
EXIT QUESTION: Someone either below of possibly in an email to me said that the DoD choses what religions it recognizes, and that some people practice ones not recognized by the DoD. Can someone name me a religion not recognized by the DoD and someone who wishes it were practiced? An actual religion mind you, not some made up one that is clearly farcical. I am actually curious, and would like to explore it with the DoD, but I need an actual example.
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Comments
Neil (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 8:49pm
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GET A CLUE!
Clem, GET A CLUE!! The religious preference is up to the individual service member to ensure that their remains are treated in accordance with their preferences. Any service member can put "NO RELIGIOUS PREFERENCE", "ATHEIST" or even have that line completely blank. IT IS A PERSONAL CHOICE.
debossman (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 3:49pm
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Athiests
Where are the comments that were made here ?
Joseph G. Kneuer (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 3:52pm
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Religious Identification
It makes sense to give every service member the opportunity at induction, and later if they wish, to state a religious preference. But this should be for, and only for, the opportunity of chaplain or lay religious support in case of injury, illness, or death. Any reference to religious affiliation in evaluation, promotion, or assignment is inappropriate, and removal of the reference from all standard forms should be an administrative priority. I believe most (NC and C) officers would agree, but there have been too many commands that tolerate and even support prosthelytizing in recent years
Bruce (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 4:04pm
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How off can anyone get
Great agnostics!!! What if a priest should give an atheist last rights and he landed in heaven??
Nothing could be more out of place!! Since he/she doesn't believe in heaven then he's nowhere.
Engage brain before opening mouth!!
Chuck Kitchen (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 4:05pm
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Damn, grow some balls and
Damn, grow some balls and quit worrying about what a bunch of minority losers think.
Orville (not verified)
January 16, 2012 - 8:09pm
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Why do you hate black people?
Why do you hate black people?
John Kilcoyne (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 4:09pm
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Nothing too concerning
I agree that this is pretty much an idiotic request, but considering it is gettig little support I don't see why it requires a full article to dicuss it. Nor do I see the reason for the angry comments, there are people on the extremes all over. this is like a fly on a elephants butt, who cares. Me I guess since I commented, LOL
Susanna Ayers (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 4:12pm
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Enough!
Why can't you do what most people do when a question is asked that they don't want to answer - leave it blank. It is a voluntary disclosure. How else is a military hospital going to know that a wounded GI who follows Catholic beliefs needs Last Rites in his, or her, final hours, or a GI who follows Judaism may have particular spiritual needs that need to be addressed? My family has served honorably - and we have never faulted anyone over a question of faith, or the right to not believe. But no one belief supecedes another - we all have rights and there is plenty of room on this planet - it's a question of being flexible and open. If a cross memorial gives comfort to so many then it is no big deal to one up. If you don't like it - don't look. Just walk away.
Brian Reynolds (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 4:12pm
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Religous preference
Chris Plyman makes a very good argument. The forms this information is used on are compiled into multiple databases and are used for multiple purposes. Just as an atheist may want their opinions noted, others who take their religion seriously will want the appropriate steps taken to ensure their religous freedoms are appropriately recognized.
Personally, I would have preferred that my dog tags state my religous preference regardless of where I am serving. If someone is close enough to read them, it is too late to hide he fact that I am a US soldier, and they will likely not give a crap what religion I am. If we are in "infidel" it really wont matter if we are an athesit infidel, a Protestant infidel, or a Catholic infidel.
Gary Furuta (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 4:14pm
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Religion Listed on Dog Tags
Have people forgotten what happened to some Jewish soldiers during WWII that were captured by the Germans and identified as Jewish by their dog tags? They were executed.
Neil (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 8:59pm
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That is a load of crap. It is
That is a load of crap. It is a PERSONAL decision of each service member. They did not have to put anything on their dog tags... They also could have tossed their dog tags if they wished. Military members are under no obligation to turn their dog tags over to captors.
Neil (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 9:00pm
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That is a load of crap. It is
That is a load of crap. It is a PERSONAL decision of each service member. They did not have to put anything on their dog tags... They also could have tossed their dog tags if they wished. Military members are under no obligation to turn their dog tags over to captors.
Dave (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 4:15pm
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"Free Thinkers!"
What a load of excrement! There's nothing free-thinking about these people. They hate God and his followers. That is the simple truth. Otherwise they would never even bother to bring up something as ludicrous as this. For me, I could care less if they are Athiests, Vulcans, Klingons or Scientologists, their life is theirs and it's none of my business. I stay out of what doesn't concern me. I wish they would do the same.
Orville (not verified)
January 16, 2012 - 8:14pm
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Too bad the "godly" people
Too bad the "godly" people can't care less if they are Atheist, Vulcan, Klingons or Scientologists and say their life is theirs and it's none of their business.
David Mace (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 4:23pm
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Last rites?
Last rites can be given ANY time. If someone is conscious to ASK, give them what they WANT.
Why should the decision be given over to those who will decide one faith's 'last rites' or another's is 'good 'nuff for government work'? Why should we trust the same military that was caught dumping soldiers' cremains into landfills to PRESUME what rites should be given?
When the body gets home, whatever kind of rites the FAMILY wants can be done to it.
I am appalled that the American Legion chose to dump this flaming excrement into my inbox.
SHAME ON YOU!
David Mace (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 4:48pm
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A cartoon to illustrate the problem...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MV5w262XvCU
MOTHAX (bberry) (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 4:54pm
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You are very welcome sir,
You are very welcome sir, thanks for commenting.
Frank (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 4:26pm
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Atheist goup
It is every persons right to list their religion if they wish to do so. If the person does do not want to list a religion.THAT IS THIER RIGHT,NOT THE LAW or if they wish to list thier religion,THAT IS ALSO THIER RIGHT and the atheist have no business sticking thier nose into a person religion.I was in Nam,And when myself & the person beside me were trying to stay alive,we did not pause and ask "Hey,What Religion are You ?" ATHEIST--BUT OUT !!!!!
Orville (not verified)
January 16, 2012 - 8:18pm
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You were in Nam?! Wow! Does
You were in Nam?! Wow! Does that give you special powers of insight? Does it give you the wisdom to know right from wrong? Does it mean those who disagree with you are going to "but out?"
gary stewart (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 4:28pm
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dog tags
It' my business!
Bob Berridge (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 4:32pm
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religious preference
You can list whatever you want. It would be awkward if a Jewish Rabii went to inform an Atheist family. Why get upset abut what is listed.
vel (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 4:35pm
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unforunately you are wrong
The Military Religious Freedom Foundation http://www.militaryreligiousfreedom.org/ has reams of evidence that shows that your religion is important in the military and that if you don't have the right one, you do suffer from discrimination. I'd suggest you find out the facts rather than rely solely on your own anecdotes. It is sad that Christians can try to lie about how others feel. A bit of false witnessing? No, non-Christians do not hate Christians but I do hate your religion that is used to cause such harm. Many Christians in the US do their level best to force their particular religion on others. Why else try to get the commandments into public buildings or creationism into schools? We have how many candidates prating how pious they are and how they'd change government per their religion? I'd be more than happy if you would keep your religion out of my life but that isn't how it's been so far.
MOTHAX (bberry) (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 4:52pm
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Thanks for being insulting.
Thanks for being insulting. Glad you are so open minded, and are imbued with the ability to pick my religion out of my head, when I've never stated it. Pretty much what I expect from one of the Weinstein/Mother Jones acolytes.
Orville (not verified)
January 16, 2012 - 8:21pm
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Glad YOU are so open minded!
Glad YOU are so open minded! Oh wait....
Eric (not verified)
January 13, 2012 - 2:00am
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I agree
I coulndn't have stated it better and agree totally. The only concern I have is that I believe it's every soldiers right to have his/her religous beliefs kept if something happens, i.e. last rights. Thats the only reason it should be on the dog tag. I mean thats what a dog tags for right? to basically speak for you when you are unable to speak?
Dan (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 4:37pm
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When I enlisted in 1966 I was
When I enlisted in 1966 I was asked what religion, and at the time I had no church affiliation. So I have listed on my dog tags "no preference". So, what is the problem ? I do believe we have more problems in the world more pressing than this.
ART Hendrickson (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 4:40pm
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Religious preference
As a former Vietnam FMF Corpsman, I have and had to use the dog tag designation many times. I am also an atheist, but it is essential when one of my brothers in arm is injured or killed that His choice of religious (or none)affiliations be recognized and afforded to him if possible. My goodness, he/she has just given a great deal, at least let us honor his choice and if is removed from his "jacket" or dog tag, we can't.
vel (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 4:41pm
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it's also curious
that on the white house petition website: https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions#!/petitions I can't find one petition that has the text you have said it did. Perhaps you can provide a link to it?
MOTHAX (bberry) (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 4:46pm
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I did link to it, but the
I did link to it, but the petition seems to take a while to come up.
https://wwws.whitehouse.gov/petitions/!/petition/eliminate-mandatory-mil...
Orville (not verified)
January 16, 2012 - 8:23pm
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Signed! Thanks for the link
Signed! Thanks for the link
ART Hendrickson (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 4:41pm
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Religious preference
As a former Vietnam FMF Corpsman, I have and had to use the dog tag designation many times. I am also an atheist, but it is essential when one of my brothers in arm is injured or killed that His choice of religious (or none)affiliations be recognized and afforded to him if possible. My goodness, he/she has just given a great deal, at least let us honor his choice and if is removed from his "jacket" or dog tag, we can't.
Jessica (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 4:41pm
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If the Jewish soldiers in
If the Jewish soldiers in WWII were captured and then executed by Germans, I can only imagine what would be done if they were in some areas of the middle east. There is no need for the preference on the dog tags. Actually, it is up to the person who reads the paperwork for the dog tags to be made. I stated that I had no religious affiliation (which I believed at the time) and when I got mine back they said "Catholic". I had more issues when I tried to have them made over again.
Also, "In God we Trust" motto constitutes a "law respecting an establishment of religion" by the government, thus violating the Establishment Clause of the First Amendment and the Separation of church and state.
I was stationed in the Middle East for my first tour, and I have discovered that our choice in religion is a private matter. If we try to convince others that they are wrong, the we are the ones who are experiencing pride issues.
David Mace (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 5:23pm
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Just think what would happen
Just think what would happen to someone with 'atheist' or 'agnostic' or even 'deist' on their dog tags, if captured in the same situation.
So many simply pick a milquetoast Christian faith, because they fear reprisal, discrimination, etc., if their true faith (or lack thereof) were publicly advertised, and they just don't personally care about it enough to pick a fight about it every day.
I personally HAD TO lie about my 'faith' to be deployed to Saudi Arabia in the 1980's, on their passport forms. I was instructed to, when I got there. 'Ordered' would be too strong a word... but it was either that, or be put on a plane and sent right back, and have to explain to the squadron commander why I was sent home (and could never go back) while they scrambled to send someone else to replace me. Because they didn't put me on the spot about it until I was already in Riyadh.
No heathens allowed!
MOTHAX
January 13, 2012 - 8:22pm
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Well, clearly because of your
Well, clearly because of your experience 20-30 years ago, that is proof it is still happening.
Marley Stevens (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 4:59pm
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Atheist til' the last moment of Life....
Leave well enough alone and don't start changing religious preference on any forms....
I have had "Atheists" die in my arms on the field of intense combat....no Priest available....and at the very last moment they asked me to give them the "Last Rites".
Can't we think of something beter to do other than change forms that serve the purpose well anyway?
Robert (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 5:06pm
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Religion on DOG TAG'S
It doesn't matter what religion you are, IF YOUR A AMERICAN MILITARY PERSON who's get's captured IN THE MIDDLE EAST your dead! AFTER THEY CUT YOUR HEAD OFF THEY DON'T URINATE ON YOUR BODY =THEY BURN IT OR CHOP IT UP AN DISPLAY FOR THE PUBLIC!
HM2 USS Arkansas (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 5:07pm
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tags
It is on your dog tags (as stated by Jack and Joe) for a good reason. The notch on the tags is so the corpsman can stick the tag in your dead mouth and wedge it in your teeth and then kick your jaw shut. This is for speed and because the toes (which is the second tag) may be missing. after everyone dead has been piled up the Chaplin will come around and say last rights based on the tag in your mouth or toes if your are lucky. The point is it should be on the tag for people who care about that.
As for the point of the conversation. You really do not have freedom of religion in the military. if you put "atheist" or "None" you get a cross in the cemetery, if no one is there to claim you. I put Jewish on mine as i thought a star would look cooler than a cross and i got to drink wine underway on Friday nights. Additionally. there were a group of button pushers on my ship that wanted to be have "Satanic" services weekly. I did applaud their efforts. The Skipper would not allow it. That is not freedom - total crap. They have every right to worship whoever they want. Jews and atheists do not believe in Satan but the Skipper did.
Really the atheist group should not care what is on the dog tags or forms... because it is only used when you are dead in the military and for worship services underway - which gets you out of work.
Mark (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 5:13pm
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If they don't believe in God
If they don't believe in God or anybody else people pray to then why do they care what is on the dog tag. They don't like us pushing our beliefs on them, then don't be pushing your on us.
George (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 5:13pm
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Ban Religious Preferences
For one thing they ask what are your religious preferences so that they do'nt violate your religious rights under the Constitution of the United States of America in case you're hurt or dying and are in need of a preist,pastor or rabbi heaven forbid if they prayed over an atheist! :)
MOTHAX
January 12, 2012 - 5:15pm
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True, very true. For some
True, very true. For some reason, the MAAF and MRFF groups don't like the free exercise portion of the First Amendment, only the non establishment part.
Jason Torpy (not verified)
January 13, 2012 - 11:21am
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religious freedom
MOTHAX - you're noticing all the bad things (and imaging some bad things that aren't even there). Please write to me directly through the MAAF site. I'd like to point out the majority of positive outreach we do, as well as set straight a relatively long list of misconceptions you have about this particular petition.
MOTHAX
January 13, 2012 - 11:26am
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My email is mothax@legion.org
My email is mothax@legion.org. Send it to me, and I will do a post on it.
MOTHAX
January 12, 2012 - 5:14pm
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"if you put "atheist" or
"if you put "atheist" or "None" you get a cross in the cemetery, if no one is there to claim you."
What is your source on this? I've researched it and not found a single instance of this since WWII and the unknown graves overseas.
As for the "Skipper not allowing it" then that would be a perfectly reasonable lawsuit that could be filied, much like Wiccan symbols on gravestones that the VA has been doing for years now.
HM2 (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 7:00pm
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source
i have seen several crosses. i did a google image search and a baazillion showed up. http://enessman.edublogs.org/files/2011/11/P1040181-1zo7lf0.jpg
As for the skipper/lawsuit why should they have to sue? Going after your skipper in a law suit is not a very fun way to spend your time while underway with nowhere to go.
From the captains point of view this could be disturbing, a satanic cult on his ship. Makes sense to object.
Retired STG hit the nail on the head. I am an atheist - atheist... meaning i dont believe in anything they stand for either. I do not like in god we trust on money but i need money to feed my family and that is what we use in this GREAT country. Actually i use my stupid debt card most of the time and that does not say god anywhere on there.
A true atheist does not organize or form a group.
More-so, It is disrespectful on a human level to take comfort away to some one who has been blessed with the gift of faith. Good for them thinking they are going somewhere better - that is true comfort. To bad they are brainwashed in believing that and too bad there are groups that want to remove that.
HM2 (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 7:15pm
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more
http://images.placesonline.com/photos/14354_fayetteville_unknown_us_sold...
i made an error. There is a gazillion.
Also... cool little point. when the ship would dock in the Persian Gulf area ports. part of the brief before liberty call was to remove all religious jewelry. It was specifically important for the Jews on the ship to not take their tags on liberty. At least that was the message i remember.
Retired STG (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 5:15pm
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The whole point of the
The whole point of the religious preference on dogtags is to respect that service member's religous burial preferences in the event that member is killed. It has nothing to do with forcing people to conform. It is so that person's wishes are not accidentally disrespected when they are dead. Whether you are muslim, christian, hindu, buddhist, or atheist, has no bearing in this. For people to attack this is plain contemptuous and disrespectful.
E. McKnight (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 6:18pm
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Religion and the military
Thank you retired STG for putting this issue in perspective. If others will pay close attention to your comment then maybe, just maybe, many stupid and greedy lawyers will stay away from this topic.
Jeanine (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 6:39pm
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AMEN
Thank you. Well said.
Tracy (not verified)
January 12, 2012 - 5:15pm
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Religious freedom has been
Religious freedom has been fought for and won in America. If someone doesn't like that, there are other places on this planet to move to.
Orville (not verified)
January 16, 2012 - 8:36pm
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Who "won" it? The Christians?
Who "won" it? The Christians? The Muslims? The Scientologists? You see, that's the problem. We ALL have the freedom of/from religion.
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