Of Predator Drones and Due Process...

Was the attack that killed Anwar al-Awlaki and Samir Khan justified under US and International Law?
Just to give a basic framework of the discussion, the Palm Beach Post lays it out rather nicely:
The killing of the U.S.-born Al-Qaeda cleric Anwar al-Awlaki on Friday along with another U.S. citizen and two other Al-Qaeda operatives in Yemen is likely to fuel the international controversy over the legality and wisdom of the Obama administration's dramatically increased use of drone attacks.
For several years, U.S. allies have made no public comment, even as U.S. drone strikes have killed twice as many suspected Al-Qaeda and Taliban members than were ever imprisoned in Guantanamo Bay. But that acquiescence may change, as human rights groups and the media debate the legality and collateral damage of drone attacks. The U.S. drone program has been highly effective in killing senior Al-Qaeda leaders, but the administration needs to better explain and defend its use of drones to avoid losing international support and potentially exposing administration officials to legal liability
The U.S. position, under the Bush and Obama administrations, has been that drone strikes against Al-Qaeda and Taliban leaders are permitted by the September 2001 Authorization to Use Military Force Act, which empowered the president to use "all necessary and appropriate force" against nations, organizations or persons who planned, committed or aided the Sept. 11 attacks. The United States also believes that drone strikes are permitted under international law and the United Nations Charter as actions in self-defense, with or without the consent of the country where the strike takes place.
It’s perhaps easiest to start with the people who think that it was not justified, which seems to range across the political spectrum, but noticeably more present at the far peripheries. From the far left, it is customary for me to start with Glenn Greenwald of Salon…
What’s most striking about this is not that the U.S. Government has seized and exercised exactly the power the Fifth Amendment was designed to bar (“No person shall be deprived of life without due process of law”), and did so in a way that almost certainly violates core First Amendment protections (questions that will now never be decided in a court of law). What’s most amazing is that its citizens will not merely refrain from objecting, but will stand and cheer the U.S. Government’s new power to assassinate their fellow citizens, far from any battlefield, literally without a shred of due process from the U.S. Government. Many will celebrate the strong, decisive, Tough President’s ability to eradicate the life of Anwar al-Awlaki — including many who just so righteously condemned those Republican audience members as so terribly barbaric and crass for cheering Governor Perry’s execution of scores of serial murderers and rapists: criminals who were at least given a trial and appeals and the other trappings of due process before being killed.
Meanwhile from the right we have Presidential candidates Ron Paul and Herman Cain representing the libertarian and conservative wings. First, Ron Paul:
"No, I don't think that's a good way to deal with our problems,” Paul said in a videotape of the questioning by reporters. Awlaki “was never tried or charged for any crimes. No one knows if he killed anybody. We know he might have been associated with the ‘underwear bomber.’ But if the American people accept this blindly and casually that we now have an accepted practice of the president assassinating people who he thinks are bad guys. I think it's sad.”…
“I think, what would people have said about Timothy McVeigh? We didn't assassinate him, who certainly had done it,” Paul said. McVeigh “was put through the courts then executed. … To start assassinating American citizens without charges, we should think very seriously about this.”
Paul argued that the killing of Awlaki was different from the attack on Bin Laden because Bin Laden was involved in the 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center in New York and the Pentagon in Washington.
Frankly, the Ron Paul logic on this one escapes me entirely. How is it different? Bin Ladin was never put on trial either, so was it just that 9/11 changes it? And who exactly makes the decision as to whether one event is strong enough to overcome the need for a trial, and another is not. I’d like to give the Dr., the benefit of the doubt and assumed he was misquoted, and/or there was something else he said to bolster this line of thinking, but I have been looking for two days and found nothing.
Meanwhile, Hermann Cain is being no less difficult to pin down on this one. On May 5 of this year, Cain said
"He should be charged. And since he's an American citizen, he should be tried in our courts," Cain said of al-Awlaki. When asked if he considered it legal for President Obama to order al-Awlaki killed, Cain said, "In his case, no, because he's an American citizen."
This week, somewhat inexplicably, he stated:
“I never said that [President Obama] should not have ordered [the killing]. I don’t recall saying that. I think you’ve got some misinformation," Cain said. "Keep in mind that there are a lot of people out there trying to make me sound as if I am indecisive."
“I don’t know all of the compelling evidence that the intelligence agencies and the military had. I’m convinced—I’m convinced that they have enough intelligence information that said he’s a threat to the United States of America,” Cain said. “You don’t try to prosecute or capture him simply because he’s a United States citizen.”
Unfortunately, we don’t have a particularly clear-cut explanation of the legal thinking of the White House, as the memo that was drafted is secret….
The Justice Department wrote a secret memorandum authorizing the lethal targeting of Anwar al-Aulaqi, the American-born radical cleric who was killed by a U.S. drone strike Friday, according to administration officials.
The document was produced following a review of the legal issues raised by striking a U.S. citizen and involved senior lawyers from across the administration. There was no dissent about the legality of killing Aulaqi, the officials said.
“What constitutes due process in this case is a due process in war,” said one of the officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity to discuss closely held deliberations within the administration.
The closest that we have to a legal reasoning is a speech by John O. Brennan, Assistant to the President for Homeland Security and Counterterrorism before the Program on Law and Security at the Harvard Law School:
In the face of this ongoing and evolving threat, the Obama Administration has worked to establish a counterterrorism framework that has been effective in enhancing the security of our nation. This framework is guided by several core principles.
First, our highest priority is – and always will be – the safety and security of the American people. As President Obama has said, we have no greater responsibility as a government.
Second, we will use every lawful tool and authority at our disposal. No single agency or department has sole responsibility for this fight because no single department or agency possesses all the capabilities needed for this fight.
Third, we are pragmatic, not rigid or ideological – making decisions not based on preconceived notions about which action seems “stronger,” but based on what will actually enhance the security of this country and the safety of the American people. We address each threat and each circumstance in a way that best serves our national security interests, which includes building partnerships with countries around the world.
Fourth—and the principle that guides all our actions, foreign and domestic—we will uphold the core values that define us as Americans, and that includes adhering to the rule of law. And when I say “all our actions,” that includes covert actions, which we undertake under the authorities provided to us by Congress. President Obama has directed that all our actions—even when conducted out of public view—remain consistent with our laws and values.
Now, I don’t really see much of a legal argument per se in there, but everyone else is pointing to this speech as the justification. So, in the meantime, I guess we just have to guess as to what it is, and try to find a way to differentiate the Greenwald/Paul/Cain reasoning from that of the White House.
Either way, what do you guys think? Was the strike legally justifiable or not?
UPDATE: This article in Military.com today gives me a little more to go on....
A secret panel of mid-level national security officials has been established that can put American citizens on a “kill or capture” list that is ultimately sent to the White House for final approval.
The panel’s recommendations first go through a group of National Security Council “principals” – meaning Cabinet secretaries and intelligence chiefs – for approval before reaching the president’s desk, according to a report today by Reuter’s.
There is no public record of the panel’s workings and no law actually establishing it or spelling out its functions.
I don't know if that makes me more or less apprehensive about this. Is Congress cool with the President making this quasi-Judicial body without any legislative input?
If anyone is reading an inherent bias on my part in the preceding, I'd love to know what that bias is, because I honestly have no clue how I feel about this whole thing. I feel uncomfortable with secret bodies not authorized by legislation authorizing things like killings. On the other hand, Awlaki needed to be ventilated and good riddance to bad rubbish. But, we should always think worst case scenario with these sorts of things. Can you envision a scenario where a US Citizen is killed abroad with a drone attack, and he didn't have what was coming to him? Probably we all can. So, what safeguard is there? That's where I get somewhat lost.
Update X2: The family of Samir Khan issued this press release today:
We, the family of Samir Khan, in our time of grief and mourning, request that the media let us have our peace and privacy during this difficult time.
It has been stated in the media that Samir was not the target of the attack; however no U.S. official has contacted us with any news about the recovery of our son’s remains, nor offered us any condolences.
As a result, we feel appalled by the indifference shown to us by our government.
Being a law-abiding citizen of the United States, our late son Samir Khan never broke any law and was never implicated of any crime. The Fifth Amendment states that no citizen shall be 'deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law' yet our government assassinated two of its citizens.
Was this style of execution the only solution? Why couldn’t there have been a capture and trial?
Where is the justice? As we mourn our son, we must ask these questions.
Sincerely,
The Khan Family.
I find that mildly ridiculous, because one of the last things Samir wrote was an article in the Al Qaeda Magazine entitled "I am proud be a traitor to America." So, he was a law-abiding self-professed traitor? Something doesn't add up there wouldn't you say?
My Friends at My Pet Jawa are also decidedly unpleased, and included this picture of Sami's article...

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Comments
bigman (not verified)
October 7, 2011 - 5:37pm
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Drone attack, was it justified?
You really have to be kidding to even ask "was it justified", the man was a traitor to the USA and deserved what he got.
Dan Vrooman (not verified)
October 7, 2011 - 6:09pm
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drone attacks
"Terrorism is the war of the poor, and war is the terrorism of the rich." Who do you suppose gets the drones? And who is it who suffers the most from the consequences of them? Further still, who gets a voice in the justification of their use?....Go ahead and strut your jewelry, girls.
William (not verified)
October 7, 2011 - 6:15pm
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It's been done before ...
We've killed Americans in battle before - long before. During the American Civil War Lincoln held to the position that the Union wasn't dissolved, therefore, for him to make war upon the Confederate States and its soldiers and citizens would be make war upon US citizens (if they were still in the Union). Lincoln certainly killed southern Americans by the tens of thousands to achieve his political goals. Killing Anwar al-Awlaki is certainly justified. The military is sworn to defend the US against "all enemies foreign AND DOMESTIC."
Robert (not verified)
October 7, 2011 - 6:41pm
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Drone Hit
Who cares if the attack that killed the dirty bastard was justified.
Just remember the 3000 people that were killed on 9-11-01
twitterisfortwits (not verified)
October 7, 2011 - 6:58pm
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Drone attack
Nuke the whole Middle East for all I care.
JOHN V DELLINGER II (not verified)
October 7, 2011 - 7:03pm
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drone use
War is; we don't need a definition as to what it "is".
Tom Tomkins (not verified)
October 7, 2011 - 7:06pm
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Drone Attack on US Citizens
While I am not versed on internationl law or the finer points of our legal system, it appears to me that enemy combatants are not immune to attack regardless of citizenship. The discernment here is whether one or both were "combatants" or just traitors; and, if traitors and suspected, did they deserve the legal rights of all other US citizens. I understand the "save lives" argument but who gets to make the adjudication of "guilt" in determining the lives of innocents versus the life of killers or potential killers? It is a slippery-slope. If Timothy McVeigh, the Oklahoma City bomber, were driving down the road could our government decide he was a terrorist and assasinate him with a drone attack?
It would have been less a moral, social and legal issue had we captured the two. If they died in a fire-fight, that would have been also more acceptable. I understand that our troops would have been at risk in doing so. My consternation is who gets to make the decision and who can they kill?
BosunJim (not verified)
October 7, 2011 - 7:18pm
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Our Constitution
Sorry, but I have an idea that to be perfectly in agreement with the rights of U.S. Citizens before killing them, there should be a trial in which they are found guilty by a jury of their peers of a crime which calls for the death penalty under our laws. It could eliminate such things as miss-identifications and other errors which sometimes place innocent people in jeopardy. This, I say, after so very many people serving time have been found "Innocent" since the use of DNA tests has been accepted as evidence by the courts!
James F (not verified)
October 7, 2011 - 7:42pm
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Predator Drone
I believe it was justified. They were traitors and were set out to do harm to Americans. We are not going to get anywhere in the war against terror if we don't do what has to be done.
brad (not verified)
October 7, 2011 - 8:07pm
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drone attack
If a American helps terrorists, then they are fair game in my opinion!!! That give up their rights as an American by being a traitor and I don't understand what all the fuss is about...Pretty damn simple if you ask me.
Bruce Strampe (not verified)
October 7, 2011 - 8:35pm
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was drone attack legal
Who cares what the PC crowd thinks. The only thing that I can say is: BYE-BYE, Hope you enjoy the virgins.
ED (not verified)
October 7, 2011 - 9:43pm
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Elimination of due process a dangerous precedent
What most are missing is that due process doesn't mean that Awlaki needed to have been served with a warrant or anything ridiculous like that. We've known this guy was a traitor for years now. All that had to be done was that he be charged with treason in absentia with his college application as supporting documentation. Since he disavowed his US citizenship (to get a scholarship), and provided his Yemeni passport to the SSA to get an SSN as a foreign student, that would amount to his voluntarily renouncing his US citizenship in favor of foreign citizenship, even though he was born in the US. I doubt he would've shown up in court to argue the point. It would've been a quick and easy motion. I think that would've satisfied due process to ensure the rule of law, and also given us the green light to fill him full of lead at the next opportunity.
I'm certainly not going to shed any tears for those guys, but the fact that we didn't give them due process in this case is setting us up to go down a slippery slope. If you've been paying attention to legislation over the past few years, you know that the Executive can now unilaterally declare individuals to be terrorists and espionage threats due to their thoughts and planning, not just action. We've slowly crossed the threshold towards having the thought police described in 1984. So what's to stop a future President from declaring a conservative journalist a "terrorist" and subject to the provisions of the Violent Radicalization and Homegrown Terrorism Prevention Act of 2007? Although retracted soon thereafter, veterans were even declared by one government agency to be prone to radicalization (apparently because we take our Oath of Office seriously, unlike most in Congress).
I am convinced the current administration has done this purposely to set a precedent. They picked the perfect individual that everyone could hate and would bend over backwards to ignore the Constitution. This mission did not have to be executed the way it was. We bag and tag HVTs (high value targets) on a daily basis. Forced repatriations are something we've been doing for decades to grab Citizens who tried to evade the US justice system and bring them back to US soil for justice. I agree that would've been a lot of effort, which is why I would've stripped the guy of his citizenship years ago and not had to deal with any of that.
Dog Soldier (not verified)
October 7, 2011 - 10:54pm
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Terrorist-Yuk!
A lot of bleeding hearts are like many men on the Fourth of July. They only declare their indepedence when they get all lit up"!
EdJohn M Szczec... (not verified)
October 7, 2011 - 11:15pm
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Justify
Pllease STOP insulting Us with acting like we need to answer if it OK-to do what they Plan at all times.These People have No God but what they have Stated that Islam stated. And it sure does not state KILL People. Then they try to go with an Eye for an Eye. PLEASE that does nothing more then show what and who they ARE...Eye for an Eye means we then sould wipe them off the EARTH. As they state they will do to us.Stop Kissing People A____ and start thinking how we can keep getting these Evil MotherF______ off this Plant and Keep there offspring off of it too. Devil and Demons are for JERKS who will not answer for what they have DONE... The Devil is as much Bullshi_ as there is on this EARTH. ANSWER FOR WHAT YOU HAVE DONE. NOT ANY ONE ELSE. The Devil made me us do it. WHAT A JOKE...IF THE DEVIL COULD TALK FOR HIMSELF-HE WOULD SAY-ANSWER FOR YOURSELF, NOT FOR ME...
Gerald (not verified)
October 8, 2011 - 12:03am
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Due Process of (War) Law
Since war has been declared against terrorism,namely Al-Qaede and al-Alawaki chose to align his loyalty to them,I personally deem any arguement about whether he should have been targeteted as absolute non-sense and PC stupidity.When engageing in a war,either fight the war or stay the hell out of it.Did the US learn nothing in Viet-Nam ?
johnny (not verified)
October 8, 2011 - 1:33am
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due process
due process WAS served!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Norma Yaris (not verified)
October 8, 2011 - 5:44am
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about u.S Drone
U.S.Drone attacked the Al-Qaeda & their followers is very justifiable.
Alan Adkins (not verified)
October 8, 2011 - 9:18am
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Predator Drones and Due Process
I feel the (Our) Government goes too far when it puts out 'Contracts' on our American people. No one is Safe. If I walk down the street and someone on the 'Governments' terror list stops me and chats, Am I a subject for termination? Think about it. Americans 'Shall Not' be terminated by our own Government WITHOUT Due Process in a Court of Law!! If an American is alongside the enemy fighting against us., then he needs to be taken out as any enemy is taken out.
Stand up Americans.... We Will become a Police State if this kind of actions keep up. Indiana is moving in that direction right not, where a police officer can break down your door anytime with or without reason and You Cannot defend yourself. Police State fellow Americans....
Jim Schuck (not verified)
October 8, 2011 - 10:35am
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al-Awlaki
Why should his country of birth have anything to do with it? There is definite legal precident from WWII that states that American citizens who consort and conspire with the enemy at a time of war can be treated as enemy combatants. If my personal opinion counts for anything, al-Awlaki gave up any claim he had to his rights as an American citizen when he stood against us and our way of life.
tscott (not verified)
October 8, 2011 - 10:44am
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Laws
Please, Oh Please, Where, in the big book on war, does there appear a rule that says you cannot use a drone to save a soldier's life?
Tom Girouard (not verified)
October 8, 2011 - 10:55am
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Al-Awlaki
Although I feel that taking human life is a tragedy there are times when it’s necessary to do so for the betterment of mankind . Al-Awlaki , obviously had no respect for human life and he would kill you and your family in the name of Allah , so why should we fell any compassion for him . What people in this country have to realize and come to terms with is the fact that America is under attack and there are many people in this world who would kill you and your family without any hesitation simply because we are Americans . Al-Awlaki , made the choice to betray his Birth country and practice the belief that all Americans were his enemy , this man was a traitor who without question , by his actions ,committed treasonous acts against this country , and for this he deserved to be held accountable . We have a right to defend ourselves from hateful people such as he and for this reason I strongly feel that he deserved to be removed as a threat to the safely of all of us . I’m sure that his hateful beliefs’ will be something that even his own God , will have trouble understanding . The world is a safer place without him .
Bob (not verified)
October 8, 2011 - 11:35am
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WAR
We need to go back before Vietnam and start over. We should have nuked N. Korea, we should have nuked Hanoi, Vietnam and we should have threatened Iraq and Iran and Afghanistan and this war would be over now. I'am a Vet and I've lost to many friends because of all the evil in the world, and not doing the job right. Why was it alright to kill civiians in WW 1 and WW 2 but not now? Those civilians are the ones that agreed with their country's policies.
R A Passano (not verified)
October 8, 2011 - 1:03pm
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Of Predator Drones and Due Process...
If Congress had done its job - and declared War on those who have declared and prosecuted War against us - there would be far fewer absurd legal issues about unlawful combatants and dealing with traitors. Also our military would be afforded greater legal protections when dealing with our enemies. But Congress has not declared War since December of 1941; and the subsequent military actions have not for the most part turned out well for us or our country.
Jerry Thompson (not verified)
October 8, 2011 - 5:59pm
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Use of Drones
I am going to make this short and sweet. I am tired of protecting the world and being critized by the enemy for our tactics. Screw International opnion.
Marine Veteran (not verified)
October 8, 2011 - 6:46pm
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Hell ya it was justifield
Hell ya it was justifield remember were in a war against terror if your a terrorist, american or not your dead.
KenlRay (not verified)
October 8, 2011 - 7:29pm
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al-Awlaki Assasination
It is a sad commentary that virtually anything that is coming from our government is highly suspect at best and most probably a total fabrication. Anything associated with the so called War on Terror usually falls in the latter category.
kinghq1
October 8, 2011 - 9:13pm
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United Nations Charter
This is definitively for legal minds greater than mine to decide. However, couple things to mull over.
1st, there is no worry about United Nations Charter. The United Nations has no say whatsoever about what the US does or doesn't do in foreign Countries. This goes for ANY Country. The United Nations is not a Governing authority, they are a mediation body. This reporter should have gone and read the Charter. I believe what this reporter was really referring to was the Geneva Convention which outlines the ROE, Rules of Engagement. Anyone who has been in the Military is aware of these rules.
The Geneva Convention does NOT protect Terrorists. If memory serves me right, it explicitly says so. It only affords protection to those who are organized under a common uniform or flag.
2nd, some reports have surfaced that this Cleric was part of the 9/11 tragedies. There is video that shows two of the hijackers using this Cleric's Mosque. The argument can be made on whether or not he was still a US Citizen. Yes, he was US born, but if he went to Yemen and denounced his Citizenship of his own free will and choice, then he is no longer afforded the protections from the Constitution.
This is one of those debates that will rage on for years, probably even decades. Whatever the outcome, this action saved countless lives, not only American's but other Nationalities around the world and has sent a clear message: It does not matter who you are, if you are involved with Terrorists you best watch your back.
Cal C (not verified)
October 9, 2011 - 12:59am
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Of Predator Drones and Due Process...
First and foremost there is a distinct difference between murder, assassination and target. Killing innocent people and children is murder, the dirrivative of assassination is target. Everyone has the power and undertstanding as to what defines you as a target and what does not. When you become a target you yourself have already made the decision to act outside the law that protects you and as a result you are considered "OUTLAW" with out protection of the law. I only have two words to justify Mr. Awlaki's demise and that is "target eliminated" it does not matter to me whether the target is foreign or domestic. He brought this upon himself. There are many ways to voice one's opinion without violating the four essentlal freedoms which are freedom of speech anywhere in the world, freedom of religion and worship anywhere in the world, freedom from fear anywhere in the world, and freedom of the press anywhere in the world. The choice to violate these will for the most part, make you a target.
Todd in Afghani... (not verified)
October 9, 2011 - 9:20am
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The United States Constitution
1. Neither of those Americans embraced being "American" and neither approved of the "American Freedoms" that we guarantee our citizens, including women and infedels, to enjoy. I lose no sleep over their deaths. As many here have stated, "Good riddance to bad rubbish."
2. The laws of the United States, and the American Constitution allow the Government to remove the life from the body of those who do not wish to abide by the laws and Constitution of this land, as long as a particular process is followed.
3. The laws, Constitution and process were not followed. The United States Government again ignored the contract it has with its people and purposely and UNLAWFULLY ended the lives of two AMERICAN CITIZENS. Nobody has provided anything showing where those two persons renounced their citizenship, so they were still American Citizens and deserved EVERY right that American Citizens are granted by GOD and guaranteed by the CONSTITUTION. Every Right We have should be both cherished and protected aggressively; especially with a government that has called its own soldiers returning from war a "Terrorist Threat." If they are willing to ignore the law to kill one terrorist (that the people hate) they will use that as an example to prove the legitamacy to kill a supposed terrorist that they fear, such as an American Citizen that returns from Iraq and complains to his Congressman about any number of issues that someone could reasonably complain about these days.
I will sleep less knowing that our government has purposely gone down the slippery slope of "legal assassinations of American Citizens it doesn't like." Everyone reading this should ask themselves if they have ever said a bad word about a government official at any level. Then ask themselves if it is possible that someone with a skewed sense of right and wrong might not take that sentance to prove that the reader must be a terrorist, and thus legal to assassinate?
Can't happen in this country? what is so great about OUR Government to protect us from that kind of attrocity? It has happened before. Read your history books, it is called McCarthyism. The only difference is that Senator McCarthy just wanted to black list you so that you couldn't get a good job or be influential on the public mind. The current Administration is MURDERING AMERICAN CITIZENS WITHOUT TRIALS. Even child molesters get a trial.
Do I weep for these two losers, no. If they'd have gotten a trial I would have volunteered to administer the lethal injection, electric current, tie the noose, pull the trigger, whatever method the judge desired. But they didn't receive a trial, so I weep for ANOTHER lost liberty.
Rick (not verified)
October 9, 2011 - 2:57pm
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Legality of killing by Predator Drones
All good commentaries. It is nice to see there are American who still think and analyze things. Although it appears as if there is too much thinking involved in this situation. Yes I believe in the Constitution, the laws of the land and our free way of life. I have defended the United States of America on foreign soil and domestically; as a Marine and Police Officer.
I and many others like me volunteer to be put in a place to defend those who cannot defend or help themselves. Sometimes that involves helping the person who spit on us or fought with us or tried to hurt someone else the week before. If a Bad Guy, Criminal, Terrorist, Little Green Man from Mars or whatever you want to call them, plans to immediately or imminently attempt to cause death or great bodily harm to you, I am, or any other person, is legally allowed to "STOP" them by any means necessary. If that means to stop them involves death then so be it. There is due process in that scenario as well but the situation evolves so quickly that I will, must and I am expected to, by the community I protect, to end the threat quickly and possibly by violent means.
Glenn has the luxory of sitting on camera and Monday morning quarterbacking a decision that was made to save lives around the world not just the US. The fact that the criminal is a US Citizen, any other citizen of any other country in the world or a Little Green Man from Mars, has nothing to do with his actions. If he wages war against our Great Nation then thats just too bad. I'm not even going to bring up the discussino that I'm certain he has already denounced his citizenship. Doesn't matter.
I see this as a very simple discussion. The man is actively engaging and plotting war against our nation; our people. Therefore he is a combatant and should be eliminated when the opportunity arises. It really is that simple.
Dick Bulova (not verified)
October 9, 2011 - 5:20pm
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Predator Drones and Due Process
I was thinking what would be involved in capturing him and returning him to the US for trial. Would he be worth the US casualties and expense? Remember he had already renounced his citizenship. Xin Loi!
Charlie, Sp/4 (not verified)
October 9, 2011 - 10:01pm
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Drones
I believe this is one of our best weapons we've come up with. With these we are less likely to harm women and children. If you don't believe this, them just matbe you should move over there with the killers.
wolfmann (not verified)
October 9, 2011 - 10:11pm
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A secret panel of mid-level
A secret panel of mid-level national security officials has been established that can put American citizens on a “kill or capture” list that is ultimately sent to the White House for final approval.
The panel’s recommendations first go through a group of National Security Council “principals” – meaning Cabinet secretaries and intelligence chiefs – for approval before reaching the president’s desk, according to a report today by Reuter’s.
There is no public record of the panel’s workings and no law actually establishing it or spelling out its functions.
so does this mean that ANYONE that disagrees with the Obama administration could be on the kill or capture list??
Hmmm i wonder
wolfmann (not verified)
October 9, 2011 - 10:25pm
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right on Alan Adkins just
right on Alan Adkins just the point i was trying to make
What stops the Government from targeting ANYONE they feel is a threat to THEIR beliefs??
Todd in Afghanistan (not verified)
October 10, 2011 - 5:56am
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Constitution
People keep justifying the ignoring of the Constitution and rules of law because he was an enemy combatant. Last I checked we are not at war in Yemen, nor are we that worried about the people in Yemen attacking Americans in the War Zone (or elsewhere) from Yemen, with some exception of the planning. If he wasn't in the war zone, saying he was a direct threat isn't misleading, it is a lie. If he was planning missions against Americans, then he is still somewhere that we can send in a team to capture him. Does it put peoples lives at risk? Yes, people like you and me that have SWORN TO UPHOLD THE CONSTITUTION OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, and are willing to go extract scumbags like this and will do so with a smile on their faces. The fact that so many people on here have sworn to uphold the constitution and are willing to say it doesn't matter, kill the bastard with any means and no regard to the Constitution repulses me. you are lower than the politicians that constantly violate their oaths because when they violate our constitutional rights they are usually doing so as a means to extra cash to get elected and do it for selfish reasons yet it rarely ends with American Citizens being murdered; the people on here speaking in defense of this particular act are talking about their belief in the legitimacy of Violating the American Right to Life as specified in Article three Section Three in the discussion of Treason:
Treason against the United States, shall consist only in levying War against them, or in adhering to their Enemies, giving them Aid and Comfort. No Person shall be convicted of Treason unless on the Testimony of two Witnesses to the same overt Act, or on Confession in open Court.
As well as the Fifth Ammendment:
No person shall be held to answer for a capital, or otherwise infamous crime, unless on a presentment or indictment of a Grand Jury, except in cases arising in the land or naval forces, or in the Militia, when in actual service in time of War or public danger; nor shall any person be subject for the same offense to be twice put in jeopardy of life or limb; nor shall be compelled in any criminal case to be a witness against himself, nor be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor shall private property be taken for public use, without just compensation.
Some people will claim that there is a military exception for the fifth Ammendment, and there is, but if there is no war in the country in which we killed him how do you make that claim with a straight face? And more importantly, read that exception and you will see that the person must commit the act while in service to our country in our military, these two have never to my knowledge joined the American Military or partaken of the many militias here either state sponsored or not. The government however could use that argument to kill you while on vacation spearfishing along the coast of Honduras while on R&R because you previously called the President a traitor for bowing to The Saudi King (many military and conservative Americans said that so it is a fitting example here).
Be careful letting any government official head down a slippery slope away from the guarantees of the Constitution, they have already nullified much of it in our courts, and many people on here seem to be congratulating them on having nullified another of our rights. Re-examine your oath. Re-examine your life. Re-examine the direction you want this country to go. Ask yourself if you are supporting that in your current actions.
Anonymous (not verified)
October 10, 2011 - 10:25am
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damned right it is justified.
damned right it is justified.
Randy (not verified)
October 10, 2011 - 3:36pm
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Drone attacks - legal justification
Legal justification:
"... that drone strikes against Al-Qaeda and Taliban leaders are permitted by the September 2001 Authorization to Use Military Force Act, which empowered the president to use "all necessary and appropriate force" against nations, organizations or persons who planned, committed or aided the Sept. 11 attacks".
Al-Quaida is an organization responsible not only for the Sept 11 attacks, but subsequent attacks or attempted attacks against the US and its citizens.
Al-alwalki and Kan were members of al-Quaida.
Therefore, it appears there is legal justification to remove such threats.
Nothing was stated about legally establishing membership in Al_Quaida, there seems to be an agreement that the person's professing membership is all that is needed.
Nationality is inconsequential.
Keep those drones flyin'
Todd in Afghanistan
October 10, 2011 - 5:10pm
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The Constitution is the argument, not wether these two were scum
In Marbury V Madison, Chief Justice John Marshall gave a lenghty explanation of every point of contention within the case, The last ten paragraphs of explanation before saying the decision follow:
"No person," says the Constitution, "shall be convicted of treason unless on the testimony of two witnesses to the same overt act, or on confession in open court."
Here. the language of the Constitution is addressed especially to the Courts. It prescribes, directly for them, a rule of evidence not to be departed from. If the Legislature should change that rule, and declare one witness, or a confession out of court, sufficient for conviction, must the constitutional principle yield to the legislative act?
From these and many other selections which might be made, it is apparent that the framers of the Constitution [p180] contemplated that instrument as a rule for the government of courts, as well as of the Legislature.
Why otherwise does it direct the judges to take an oath to support it? This oath certainly applies in an especial manner to their conduct in their official character. How immoral to impose it on them if they were to be used as the instruments, and the knowing instruments, for violating what they swear to support!
The oath of office, too, imposed by the Legislature, is completely demonstrative of the legislative opinion on this subject. It is in these words:
I do solemnly swear that I will administer justice without respect to persons, and do equal right to the poor and to the rich; and that I will faithfully and impartially discharge all the duties incumbent on me as according to the best of my abilities and understanding, agreeably to the Constitution and laws of the United States.
Why does a judge swear to discharge his duties agreeably to the Constitution of the United States if that Constitution forms no rule for his government? if it is closed upon him and cannot be inspected by him?
If such be the real state of things, this is worse than solemn mockery. To prescribe or to take this oath becomes equally a crime.
It is also not entirely unworthy of observation that, in declaring what shall be the supreme law of the land, the Constitution itself is first mentioned, and not the laws of the United States generally, but those only which shall be made in pursuance of the Constitution, have that rank.
Thus, the particular phraseology of the Constitution of the United States confirms and strengthens the principle, supposed to be essential to all written Constitutions, that a law repugnant to the Constitution is void, and that courts, as well as other departments, are bound by that instrument.
I can not say it strongly enough, you are either fighting in support of the Constitution, or you oppose it. I am repulsed by how many here obviously oppose it.
ED (not verified)
October 11, 2011 - 3:06am
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No one gets it.
Amen, brother. I think there's only a handful of us that really "get it" and are crying out in the wilderness to no avail. Based on your comments to this point, I'm with you 100%. It's really frightening how little people understand about the Constitution. Everyone defending the government's actions in this case are missing the whole concept that rights are inalienable...granted by God, and not by government. The right of due process--the concept that a government must respect all of the legal rights that are owed to a person under the law--cannot be stripped. It is an inalienable right enumerated in the Bill of Rights. If the Executive branch can take away an enumerated right, it sets a terrible precedent. Our Fourth Amendment rights are already being abused, next come the gun control laws, and removal of free speech and free association. Take away these four rights, and the public has no way to resist tyranny.
Todd in Afghanistan
October 11, 2011 - 5:08am
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Constitution
Yes Ed, I fear that the United States Congress has done one thing completely correct (at least according to their plan) in the last 40 years, and that is the dumbing down of the American Populace. Overall it was a complete success and probably even completed ahead of schedule.
There is a purpose behind American Schools no longer teach things like reasoning and problem solving. There is purpose for schools not teaching the U.S. Constitution anymore either. Teachers won't even discuss in any depth how the revolution started or how our founding fathers tried again and again to no avail to address their many grievances; teachers just say it started because the Americans didn't want to pay their taxes to England.
It is truly sad; Rome is burning, It's Senators are Having a Party, Nero is sitting in his office with his feet on the desk asking his handlers who to bow to next, and those sworn to protect the citizens are watching the fire and applauding......
Edgar A Turner Jr (not verified)
October 10, 2011 - 5:15pm
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Drone attack justified
According to my military oathes. F-ing "A" Straight it was justifiable. An enemy Domestic or Foreign is all fair game. Good Job. Well Done. The enemy does not take time to distinguish civilians and has killed many non-combatants. With that said....keep f-ing them up.
democedes (not verified)
October 11, 2011 - 5:23pm
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Our oath
If Awlaki was not the target of the attack, I would say that he was in the wrong place at the wrong time. The moral being: don’t hang out with known international terrorists… you could get hurt.
However, I believe we are discussing something entirely though. Some people seem to think it is acceptable for the US to target US citizens for assassination. I find it sad that so many here are willing to give up our constitutional rights for a POS like Awlaki (and people like him). Essentially, you would give the president power to assassinate anyone at any time, without due process.
Sure, this time it was clearly a bad guy, the world is a better place without him in it; but who made that decision? Maybe the next time it might not be so cut and dried.
As veterans, we all swore an oath to “support and defend the CONSTITUTION of the United States”... This part of the oath has not changed since 1789. I find it telling that several here have left the constitution part out. How exactly does one defend the constitution by ignoring one of its core principals?
I am not a coward, I am not a bleeding heart liberal, I would simply rather live in a world with a little terrorism that live in a state of tyranny.
For those of you advocating violence against civilians: You have more in common with the terrorists we are fighting than the soldiers that fought to form this nation.
“They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety”- Benjamin Franklin
Edgar A Turner Jr (not verified)
October 10, 2011 - 5:32pm
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Those that think it unjust a few words I give you...
"No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. He won it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country." - General George Patton Jr, "Nuts" Maj-Gen. Anthony McAuliffe, It meant" Go to hell" , so for those of you thinking it unjust you may as well be the enemy and go to the otherside. Thus may our follies find your body til dead.
Len W. (not verified)
October 10, 2011 - 7:07pm
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al-awlaki
We are at war against these terrorists, are we not? Then BattleField Justice prevails...They are trying to kill us, so we are going to do what we must do, returning the favor. All of you do- gooders out there that want to give them a fair trial??? WAKE UP! What say you about all the declared wars of our great and wonderful past? Should we have given the Germans and the Japanese and north Koreans a trial, maybe talked with them a little---HORSE ----! again, I say Wake Up America they want to kill us! I agree with James Ray above, bring back our troops and put them to work on our borders. I bet the drug cartell's and illegals will be thinking twice about coming here illegally. By the way where's the justice for the ranchers on the borders that are getting killed and harrased constantly??
Jim (not verified)
October 10, 2011 - 10:34pm
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Of Predator Drones and Due Process
Earlier posts provide more than adequate justification for the handling of traitors waging war against the U.S. Inserting a question of whether drones should be used is off the mark. The use of drones is as justifiable as the use of other weaponry.
Todd in Afghanistan
October 11, 2011 - 4:56am
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Drones are not the arguement.
Honestly, did you read any portion of the three posts I wrote?
Drone usage was not the problem, hell, I pilot one of the smaller varieties. They are all great tools.
My problem is that these were not enemy combatants, enemy combatants are on a battlefield and we are not at war with anyone in YEMEN. WE ARE AT PEACE WITH YEMEN. Look at a map and find YEMEN and try and find a war zone that even touches YEMEN, you can't do it. Therefore the whole BS arguement that it was battlefield expedient taking out of enemy soldiers is complete hogwash. Being that they were American Citizens NOT IN A WAR ZONE guaranteed them certain protections from our government, they violated those AMERICAN's Constitutional Rights.......and you're still applauding.
It was a ruse to set a precident that our government be able to assassinate Americans that it deems dangerous.
MOTHAX
October 11, 2011 - 8:14am
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Welcome to my workd bud. Lot
Welcome to my world bud. Lot of people get too fired up to read what is actually written.
Michael B. Mean... (not verified)
October 11, 2011 - 1:00pm
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This is/was War.
This is/was War. Considering all circumstances, the killing of al-Awlaki was certainly justified. I'm glad this important Al-Qaeda leader is DEAD. Continue using drones which have been proven effective.
Michael B. Mean... (not verified)
October 11, 2011 - 1:06pm
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This is/was War with enemy
This is/was War with enemy combatants. al-Awlaki was an enemy combatant. Considering all circumstances, the killing of al-Awlaki was certainly justified. I'm glad this important Al-Qaeda leader is DEAD. Continue using drones which have been proven effective.
Minnesota (not verified)
October 12, 2011 - 7:25pm
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Drone Killing Justified
Of course playing by all the rules just isn't how winning a war works completely justified. He definitely received his wish he is with Allah now!!
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